query-5ee4aa4d531e186e1984f048e6438ee7
nationalityWikidata:Property proposal/Person Originally proposed at (P945)allegiance , (P103)native language , (P1412)languages spoken, written or signed , (P27)country of citizenship , (P172)ethnic group See also(Q2494649)Union List of Artist Names and (Q17299517)RKDartists bot import e.g. from Robot and gadget jobs and others(Q2494649)Union List of Artist Names , (Q17299517)RKDartists Source(Q846570)Americans → (Q76)Barack Obama (Q188353)Welsh people → (Q20890211)Robert John Pryse (Q170217)Czechs → (Q36233)Václav Havel (Q42884)Germans → (Q352)Adolf Hitler (Q42884)Germans → (Q5580)Albrecht Dürer (Q862086)Indians → (Q1001)Mahatma Gandhi Example(Q1196645)Canadians or (Q14535097)Indonesians , (Q44806)Ukrainians , like (Q231002)nationality subclass of Allowed valuespeopleDomainc:Template:Creator; "nationality" in en:Template:Infobox person"nationality" in Template parameterItemData type(Q231002)nationality Represents is person identified with(Q231002)nationality what Description Not done Motivation ]reply[14:53, 9 August 2017 (UTC)) talk (Jarekt. --this discussion. See also (Q160894)Spaniards are (Q1321)Spanish , but not all speakers of (Q809)Polish speak (Q1026)Poles often determines nationality: mostly (P103)native language as "American president" not "Kenyan American President". (Q76)Barack Obama is also problematic as it often does not define a person. We refer to (P172)ethnic group ). (Q352)Adolf Hitler is often too precise and lists multiple items for different periods of country's existence (see (P27)country of citizenship are synonymous with nationality or can be used to decipher it. (P103)native language or (P27)country of citizenship , (P172)ethnic group . Currently there is no good way to figure out nationality of many people on Wikidata. Quite often ULAN or RKDItem descriptions of people often start with phrases like "German painter", "Welsh writer" or "Japanese Ukiyo-e artist". The first word describing a person is often nationality and most biographical infoboxes on Wikipedia projects list it. Also majority of biographical databases list it, see for example Discussion]reply[10:55, 11 September 2017 (UTC) Andy's edits; Talk to Andy); Pigsonthewing (Andy Mabbett I don't think there is sufficient clarity about how this would be used. Oppose ]reply[02:52, 30 August 2017 (UTC)) talk (Yair rand. Nationality is incredibly ambiguous. If we have a source saying "this person is an Arab", "...is Chinese", "...is Scottish", or "...is a Muslim", should we put that as nationality? Some people may self-identify their nationality as such, but not all people who consider themselves part of such groups would consider their membership in the group to be a person-nation relationship. --Oppose .Wikidata:Project_chat/Archive/2017/08#How_to_look_up_persons_nationality.3FNote: Project chat discussion has been archived. See ]reply[, 19:11, 29 August 2017 (UTC)17:19, 29 August 2017 (UTC)) talk (Marsupium from bad uses. --(P172)ethnic group Not a very clean property, but there are reliable sources, it's useful to have this information (even if it's badly formalized) and I don't really see a way to formalize it better, it's mainly about historical persons and here history is hard to put into well-defined terms of a database. Actually, this property could be a means to clean Weak support ]reply[17:19, 29 August 2017 (UTC)) talk (Marsupium. --complex constraint on sourced statements has POV problems in a probably much worse way (it surely isn't a prototype to follow). But there is a (P91)sexual orientation ]reply[12:06, 29 August 2017 (UTC)) talk (Jarekt works for many contemporary people and some countries, in many cases there is no way to easily and predictably look up people's nationality based on current data model. Most nationalities are not controversial and Commons Creator templates and wikipedia infoboxes hosted them for years without much fighting. Most Wikipedia biographical articlses state nationality and occupation in the first sentence, also without much controversy in most cases. --(P27)country of citizenship , list nationality, so we should not have namy POVs. Also most biografical infoboxes use it, and although ULAN or RKD, Many sources, like Blackcat ]reply[15:22, 13 August 2017 (UTC)) talk (Blackcat While I understand the rationale of this request, I am dubious about the adoption of such property. Yes, we have clear cases (i.e. Nazario Sauro, Austrian Empire-born but Italian, condemned for treason by the Austrians but honoured as hero by the Italians), but beyond these obvious cases I am afraid that this property is prone to host a series of POVs that the disputations on Commons over the borders of Kashmir or the former republics of Yugoslavia are going to look something like a kindergarten fight on comparison. -- Comment ]reply[02:52, 30 August 2017 (UTC)) talk (Yair rand...Aaand I think we should work with a different example, for the sake of easier discussion, please. --? I'm not particularly knowledgeable about the topic, but I suspect that considering the German ethnicity to be a single nationality would be an extremely contentious idea, to say the least.(P172)ethnic group Unless we're going exclusively by the subject's own views on nationhood, shouldn't that be ]reply[18:38, 10 August 2017 (UTC)) talk (Jarekt for more details. --this discussion item I was looking for. See (Q42884)Germans have dozen of items which are not connected (in an obvious way) to (P27)country of citizenship . Their (Q352)Adolf Hitler and (Q5580)Albrecht Dürer of (P27)country of citizenship , Look at Andy ]reply[16:28, 10 August 2017 (UTC) Andy's edits; Talk to Andy); Pigsonthewing (Andy Mabbett? (P27)country of citizenship How is this different to ]reply[19:42, 9 August 2017 (UTC)) talk (ArthurPSmith - born in Scotland, later lived and died in Canada, but he worked and is credited with inventing the telephone in the US. To Canadian's, Bell is Canadian. Few Americans think of him that way. And the enwiki page lists him as "Scottish-born". None of those three "nationalities" is listed on the current wikidata page. I think this is a rather slippery concept, likely to be historically and culturally contingent and readily challenged. On the other hand, if you have a reliable source stating the nationality in some clear way, I guess it's fine to have it here in wikidata. I just have some doubts about whether it will be a useful generally single-valued property. (Q34286)Alexander Graham Bell so having grown up in Canada and hearing of many people born there (or who lived there) who moved to or worked in the US and then became celebrities, I always found it amusing that in Canadian media the person (in a report about them having won an award or something) was referred to as "Canadian", and yet there would be no mention of nationality or there would be an assumption of "American" on the US side. US media seemed more careful to call them Canadian in the case of negative news (arrest etc.) The quintessential example I can remember is Comment ]reply[12:28, 21 September 2017 (UTC)) talk (Jarekt "nationality" field. --en:Template:Infobox person and it can be used by c:template:Creator, which all state nationality, and I will call it from (P245)Union List of Artist Names ID or (P2843)Benezit ID , (P650)RKDartists ID Oh I can clarify that. We can populate it from sources like ]reply[23:56, 21 September 2017 (UTC)) talk (PKM I struggle to correctly identify artists using "country of citizenship" especially for prior centuries, when the concept "Germany" or "Italy" (for example) meant something different from the modern country. The property is stated in reliable sources such as ULAN and RKDartists (mentioned above), and using it in Commons is standard; therefore, we should have a property for it and we should reference a source for the value. (And they do sometimes disagree, but as Wikidata is an aggregator that's perfectly okay.) - Support ]reply[21:00, 21 September 2017 (UTC)) talk (Máté Nationality is too complex and at the same time too vague of a construct to be captured like this. We may limit it to its legal use, but that would hardly differ from our current citizenship property. For the other common use of the word we already have our ethnic group property. – Oppose ]reply[04:43, 14 October 2017 (UTC)) talk (Pharos to include countries that didn't have citizenship as such is correct, and perhaps it should be relabeled "country of citizenship or nationality". Leaving aside the question of whether proper citizenship existed, wouldn't both Nuremberg and Bavaria be considered "historical German states"?--(P27)country of citizenship : If there is no relationship at all to a state-like thing, we're not talking about nationality, we're talking about ethnicity - for example, I don't think we should say an Italian-speaking person born in the Duchy of Bavaria was of "Italian nationality". I think the vernacular use of Marsupium@ ]reply[14:34, 23 September 2017 (UTC)) talk (Marsupium until 1815) since Nuremberg had something like a citizenship, but that is a special case among the "historical German states". --(Q154195)Kingdom of Bavaria /(Q47261)Duchy of Bavaria , Nuremberg didn't belong to (Q47261)Duchy of Bavaria (not (Q117020)Free Imperial City of Nuremberg actually is an exception, it might be said that he was a citizen of (Q5580)Albrecht Dürer Often their isn't any relationship between a person and state-like thing in medieval and early modern period beyond the residence of the person on the territory of the state-like thing. ]reply[17:45, 22 September 2017 (UTC)) talk (Pharos with a Q item for "historical Italian states". That way it is structured, queryable, and you could even display it in infoboxes if you like.--(Q148540)Republic of Florence with a Q item for "historical German states" and (Q47261)Duchy of Bavaria , one of the historical Italian states. Better than creating a vague new biographical property, perhaps we should work on using an existing or possibly a new property that will affiliate (Q148540)Republic of Florence was a citizen of (Q762)Leonardo da Vinci , one of the historical German states, and that (Q47261)Duchy of Bavaria was a citizen of (Q5580)Albrecht Dürer I think the alternative is to work off of the fact that ]reply[16:46, 22 September 2017 (UTC)) talk (Marsupium were also considered in their times to be German and Italian respectively (although not calling that nationality). --(Q762)Leonardo da Vinci and (Q5580)Albrecht Dürer sourced) statements. But still it's a historic concept, (P143)imported from Wikimedia project statements where the person died (centuries) before the creation of the object state which might express some need). I'd prefer to get it in an at least slightly more structured form that also can be queried. I admit it isn't a very clear concept. That's why I'd support strong conditions to use the property, e.g. disallowing not sourced (and (P27)country of citizenship is Italian? Shouldn't we have it at all? In fact, we already have that information on Wikidata in unstructured form in the descriptions in dozens of languages (not to mention all the (Q762)Leonardo da Vinci is German or that (Q5580)Albrecht Dürer : and others: To turn the table how else shall we state that Máté@ ]reply[04:39, 22 September 2017 (UTC)) talk (MátéI don't quite see your point. The concept of nationality is way more modern than that of citizenship (and ethnicity). Citizenship has been around since ancient times, while the first nation state came about in the 16th century. – ]reply[16:57, 22 September 2017 (UTC)) talk (Pharos It seems like the proposer is really looking for an answer to, "What country would this person be a citizen of today?". That's an interesting question, and can be queried in various ways, but bringing in the "member of nation" concept as orthogonal to "member of state" is not I think the way to do it. The examples given seem to all be based on either ethnicity, or citizenship, or simply projecting a current state backward in time.--Comment ]reply[04:43, 14 October 2017 (UTC)) talk (Pharos as "historical Korean states".--(Q884)South Korea or (Q28370)Goguryeo : In this instance it's perhaps, "what country would this person be a citizen of today, if not for the historical accident of division?". This is a time-reversed case of Marsupium's examples I just replied to above, about "historical German states". Here, I think we can rather approach this by the concept of "historical Korean states", of which there were many before Japanese rule, and currently two after. So I think it is better to query if someone is a citizen/national of a state like Jarekt@ ]reply[17:17, 22 September 2017 (UTC)) talk (Jarekt. --(Q884)South Korea or (Q423)North Korea is "Korean" ruler but we would not assign him to neither (Q6780884)NamYeon gun , I am not an expert on "Nationality" it is just basic information about a person that most sources list and most infoboxes display, that we currently do not store in accessible format. I personally do not care how people assign those labels I just want to store them. The theory that they are assigned based on "what country would this person be a citizen of today?" is interesting, but I do not think it is correct. Pharos]reply[06:43, 23 September 2017 (UTC)) talk (Thierry Caro. (P27)country of citizenship is intended for on the French Wikipedia (but not the English, which is about the legislation, and should technically be moved to a separate item). Let's create a nationality item for each one that might be necessary and then move all declarations from (Q1164879)French nationality law . I have never understood why nationalities or citizenships should be dealt with through a property linking to countries. The property should link to items dedicated to nationalities or citizenships, such as what Comment ]reply[13:30, 27 September 2017 (UTC)) talk (Jarekt) to use for this property. --(Q5934909)Hui nationality , I would support creation of separate "nationality" items (like Thierry Caro ]reply[06:35, 27 September 2017 (UTC)) talk (Thierry CaroNot exactly. You suggest we use items such as 'Germans'. I suggest we use items such as 'German nationality', most of which have yet to be created. ]reply[06:25, 27 September 2017 (UTC)) talk (Marsupium: That isn't a support, is it? --Thierry Caro@]reply[, 08:36, 27 September 2017 (UTC)06:15, 27 September 2017 (UTC)) talk (Marsupium, you probably know more?) Regards, --RKDdata). That’s very pragmatic and hence viable here, too, in my eyes; all the more so since we (can) directly use the data of the ULAN. I guess RKDartists follows a similar approach although I didn't find any documentation on that. ((Q21510859)one-of constraint ’s (P27)country of citizenship allowed by 279 compared to currently 2267 possible values; Vladimir Alexiev (co-)authored by http://vocab.getty.edu/doc/#ULAN_Nationalities (“In ULAN "nationality" is a shorthand for nationality, culture, race, ethnicity, religion, even sexual orientation: a significant social grouping or designation of the agent.” broadly: very The Union List of Artist Names (ULAN) uses the term Comment ]reply[06:25, 27 September 2017 (UTC)) talk (Marsupium to be used wherever possible, so (in Europe) for 19+th century people. --(P27)country of citizenship and (P172)ethnic group (P1647)subproperty of We might even make this an umbrella This property is different from Citizenship as clearly demonstrated above. Country borders shift often, and populations don't always move with them. So eg you got Bosnians, Albanians and Serbs in Kosovo, etc. ]reply[13:40, 27 September 2017 (UTC)) talk (Jarekt with interesting discussion about the concept of "Nationality". In short Mozart lived in today's Austria, but was referring to himself as "German". --Mozart's nationality There is an article on Comment ]reply[18:37, 1 October 2017 (UTC)) talk (BlackcatSigmund Freud was born in the Czech Republic, is considered Austrian but was technically an Austro-Hungarian citizen, at least until 1918. That's the problem with the former Empires... -- ]reply[17:14, 29 September 2017 (UTC)) talk (Vladimir Alexiev unfortunately I have to oppose this in favor of Ethnic Group, because no clear case about the distinction between them has been made. Just add "Nationality" (and "Culture" and "Peoples") as aliases of that prop "Ethnic Group" --Oppose : "umbrella subproperty of Ethnic group and Country of citizenship" Guess you mean "super-property"? But Citizenship is very different: Nazario Sauro would never call himself Austrian: maybe even while he held an Austrian passport, he despised everything about that culture.Marsupium@ ULAN is particular to capture mostly the self-determination of the person. It won't record someone as Gay if that person hasn't said it publicly. - By the same token, we call the St Cyrill & Methodius brothers "Bulgarian" while the Macedonians call them "Macedonian" (but we Bulgarians are right ;-) - It's wholly natural that Scotts would want to call Bell "Scottish", Canadians want to call him "Canadian" and the Americans call him "American". IMHO there's no problem to capture all 3 (backed by sources), then he'd appear on indexes of "famous Scottish people" etc - If someone wants to call Obama "Kenyan" and "American", that's fine (especially if that's Obama himself). The POV concerns (there may not be reliable sources and that there will always be political arguments) are IMHO not too serious:]reply[17:17, 29 September 2017 (UTC)) talk (Vladimir Alexiev: would you agree to lump Ethnic Group/Nationality/Culture/Peoples in one prop? ULAN basically takes this approach --Jarekt@]reply[19:22, 29 September 2017 (UTC)) talk (Jarekt since we already have that property but use it differently. --(P27)country of citizenship So others store that information in fields called either "Nationality" or "Country". Here I opted for "Nationality" as less confusing than "pays" in French ("country" in English)SUDOC calls it "descriptor"NARA calls it ,geographic area RDF file calls it ("country" in English) and GND calls it "Land" in German "Nationality/school"RKD calls it most databases store information that he was "Austrian" is different fields: (Q254)Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart I am fine with that. I just would like to store the adverb stored in ULAN under "Nationalities" label somewhere. Looking at Vladimir Alexiev]reply[17:42, 2 October 2017 (UTC)) talk (Vladimir Alexiev:, I propose to give "Ethnic Group" aliases "Nationality" and "Culture" and "Peoples", and reject this extra prop proposal. ("School" is not an appropriate alias because it's specialized to arts and implies a more self-recognized and intellectual grouping) --JarektAs per @]reply[10:03, 3 October 2017 (UTC)) talk (Vladimir Alexiev:, please withdraw the proposal --Jarekt. Those were already present, confirming we did the right thing: peuple (fr), национальность (ru). @(P172)ethnic group Added aliases to ]reply[19:00, 2 October 2017 (UTC)) talk (Jarekt to make sure users working with that property see those as equivalent. --Property_talk:P172 to store content on Creator template "Nationality" field. I will post information about it at (P172)ethnic group I would be OK with adding "Nationality" alias and using ]reply[12:52, 3 October 2017 (UTC)) talk (Jarekt? --(P172)ethnic group of Obama as you suggested in the examples of (P172)ethnic group as (Q846570)Americans . Should I add (Q1318423)Australians than (Q127885)Serbs and there is much more (Q12060728)Aboriginal Australians as (Q49085)African Americans . According to Wikidata, in Australia there are as many (Q1196645)Canadians as (Q235155)White people would be described as "white American president" or "German-American president". Similarly in Canada: look at ethic makeup of Canadians according to Wikidata: most of them are "African Americans". There is almost as many (Q22686)Donald Trump based on his "Ethnic Group" he would be described as "African / multiracial / Kenyam - American president", which might be true, but most people describe him as "American president". Similarly (Q76)Barack Obama , "Ethnic Group" works well in Europe but makes little sense in North American context. For example Vladimir Alexiev
Use at
- https://query.wikidata.org/sparql
PREFIX wikibase: <http://wikiba.se/ontology#>
PREFIX wdt: <http://www.wikidata.org/prop/direct/>
PREFIX wd: <http://www.wikidata.org/entity/>
PREFIX bd: <http://www.bigdata.com/rdf#>
SELECT ?ethnicityLabel ?ethnicity (COUNT(?person) AS ?count)
WHERE
{
?person wdt:P27 wd:Q16 .
?person wdt:P172 ?ethnicity .
SERVICE wikibase:label { bd:serviceParam wikibase:language "[AUTO_LANGUAGE],en". }
}
GROUP BY ?ethnicityLabel ?ethnicity
ORDER BY DESC(?count)